And the RPG Madness continues! After taking on Zelda, and robbing Link of his "Action RPG" title, I am now going to make this claim : Strategy RPGs Are RPGs. But, before getting into this mess, let's review :
- In Zelda is NOT an RPG, the original article, I explained that Zelda is an Action Adventure game because it is based on ability keys and on progressing by force rather than an RPG battle system based on determining results of actions by random rolls weighted by stats.
- In Zelda is NOT an RPG II, the nefarious second article, I easily showed how no video game is a true role-playing game because it is impossible to play a role in a video game.1
- In Zelda is NOT an RPG III, the supposedly final article of utter doom, I showed that "pieces of an RPG do not an RPG make."
The responses to these articles you can read in the comments. It's been split — Zelda fans still argue for the "RPG coolness" of Zelda, and old timers like me who know what an RPG is respond to them, more or less, with a four letter word : Pfft.
Well, I'm not happy just pissing off the believers in Zelda is an RPG. Friends, country men, random purple beasts from Alpha Centuari — this article is going to make me very happy — by pissing off EVERYONE by taking on a sacred cow of the other side.
Ahem. Back to the issue at hand : Strategy RPGs are RPGs. — the sacred cow of everyone else .. er that they are NOT RPGs. Those who have been paying attention in the last three articles will instantly know why — and agree. However, for some of you, I'm going to have to take you back in time using my Article Time Machine to a time (gasp) before RPGs were RPGs.
Let me activate it. BZZT. Damn thing shocks me every time.
Allrighty then. Here we are. The year is 1967 and there's about 20 people gathered playing War games. A war game is played by using miniatures on a board, or map you draw (or build) yourself.
Like in RPGs, what happens in a war game is determined by random rolls weighted by stats. Each unit can take a certain amount of damage and can inflict a certain amount of damage. So, if your RBT2 makes a successful roll against a RSUS3 then the RSUS gets their heads blown off (or removed from the board).
And this is exactly how an RPG system such as Dungeons and Dragons works — and every video RPG known to man. It's the essence of an RPG battle engine. As further evidence, look at that pasty fellow there, he's Gary Gygax, the inventor of the RPG. I know the Zelda fans are shocked, so I'll give them a moment for this to sink in.
…4
…5
…6
…7
Yes, that's right. The inventor (actually co-inventor) of the RPG was not some Otacon from Japan drawing androgynous elven characters. He was an American. Continuing…
BZZT. Ouch. Now we're in 1971. Gary Gygax has just invented Chainmail a war game in a fantasy setting. Chainmail is exactly what you would think a non-electronic Strategy RPG would be. However, does that make it an RPG? Well hold on my fellow fellows.
BZZT. Owee. Now it's 1974 and madman Gary Gygax has done it again! He's modified Chainmail to include real role-playing elements. Players can now talk to the Ogre they're about to kill or leave behind the boring guy everyone wishes the new guy hadn't invited. And so, Dungeons and Dragons — the first RPG — was born.
BZZT. Arg. We're back. You can now see how a battle engine from war games evolved into the RPG. So, returning to the Strategy RPG — which pretty much just a battle engine with a bit of conversation — is it an RPG. Why yes! But only because it's a video strategy rpg.
From the previous articles you learned two important facts :
- You can't really role-play in a video RPG and
- The only thing video RPGs and the original RPGs have in common is their battle system, which, for the last time, determines results by random rolls weighted by stats.
Strategy RPGs meet the only requirement for a video RPG to be an RPG — it has an RPG battle engine. Therefore Strategy RPGs are … video RPGs.
I'm not done here. In the next article, entitled, How Make Video Sports Fans Cry I will show you … how to make video sports fans cry. I'm just kidding. It is my greatest hope that this is the last article in the series. :)
—hartnell
Comments
Being 16, i guess I'm technically in the "noob" age group, but i still enjoy pen/paper RPGs. I'm not surei have th eoatience or the time to do an actual game of D&D, but I have made a few of my own pen/paper RPGs, mostly based off D&D and Fire Emblem. It took a really long time to balance the swords. and the Lich King boss (shudders at memory) >_<
I remember when writing a decent adventure took a week. :) Maybe you should look into finding a copy of Hero Quest1. I heard a rumor that the publisher was going to revive it.
really? i made my own pen-paper game, based on fire emblem, but also on diablo and D&D ( to a lesser extent cuz i dont actually play it). as of now, the ninja class is totally OP since he can basically crit everything to death.
I apologize for spelling errors in above post^
i meant to say that "I'm not sure I have the patience…"
I think you may have simplified what role-playing is… while it's true that chainmail and it's war game predecessors have had a huge influence on role-playing games I don't think that it is only the random chance influenced by stat model of combat that makes something an RPG. For example it is easy to imagine a game where combat is determined by the character's choices in a battle (and possibly their stats) but no dice ever need be rolled. Or if you think about LARPs we have a situation where the game mechanics are those of the real world more or less.
I'm happy for Zelda to not be considered an RPG (I think it benefits more from it's action adventure elements) but I think that re-labeling anything that does not have a D and D-esque combat system is a mistake.
I understand exactly what you are saying, but this article is about video game RPGs. Since they can't have any real role-playing (barring in-chat MMORPG or something) the model I've presented is what defines the RPG genre in video games.
A LARP video game. That would be cool — or would it? :)
— hartnell
these articles are actually about video D&Desque games… just because there are dice rolls in a game doesn't mean you are closer to playing a role. In my eyes anyway, a cRPG is a game where you control a characters progression (just like when you are playing with friends). Whether its their mental or physical progrssion is irrelevant. I would call a game that had you play a character that never fought but you were in control of their fate a RPG. because you are playing the role. Role Playing.
Also, by your reckoning… if Zelda was played as a tabletop game, it would be a RPG.
I am not sure i understand you. Would you say half life is a rpg… because you play the role of Gordon Freeman?
An rpg should have to at least in control of the character's mind. Gordon Freeman keeps his mind stuck in the linear story. No freedom of choice.
In games like Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate, Jedi Knight, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, etc, you have some freedom of choice. Not as much as in a tabletop, but it's there. Whether it's just a good or bad ending, or diffent stat upgrades or whatever.
Imagine Zelda, with a dimwitted DM…
TheAmazingQWERTY:"I will talk to the bartender"
Bartender:"An outsider wouldn't care for my troubles"
TheAmazingQWERTY"I will show the bartender my sword and say 'my sword always cares'"
Bartender:"An outsider wouldn't care for my troubles"
TheAmazingQWERTY:"I'll leave the tavern"
DM:"You can see enemy shooting seeds at you. You are hit for 1 HP"
TheAmazingQWERTY:"I'll attack it back"
DM:"You missed. You aren't close enough and haven't unlocked the bow yet"
TheAmazingQWERTY:"I'll move up right next to it and hit it with my sword"
DM:"You are hit again for another 1HP. You move to the plant thing and swing your sword. At that range your chance for success is 100%. Planty dies"
Not the best tabletop rpg experience. The difference if you are in link's head, and can say what you like to the bartender before he answers the exact same way (Zelda isn't an rpg)
I agree, there are diceless RPG rules out there, some that use cards, some that use no randomizers whatsoever. I recently ran across one that was designed to be player driven instead of DM driven for the scenario properties, and players ate cookies to give their dice rolls bonuses versus difficult tasks. Not D&D by any means, but still very much an RPG of some derivative.
I think MMO's exist to be video LARP's, but my experience has been that actual role players within these online servers are a persecuted minority. Most people are more interested in noob pwning, level grinding, bragging, and online dating with avatars that are better looking than themselves. Seems more like hypocracy than role playing to me.
On another note, I'm not sure I followed your article there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your statements seem to be as followed:
Video RPG's do not equal RPG's
Video RPG's do equal Strategy RPG's
but
Strategy RPG's do equal RPG's??????
You've shown how SRPG's lead to the development of RPG's, but not how they are RPG's, since you only say they are RPG's because they are video RPG's, which you've said before are only similar to RPG's because of their mechanics.
Reading over this again, I think I'm realizing just how confused I am, but whatever, I shall trudge on.
As I was saying, if you say that Strategy RPG's are RPG's, I have no qualms, after all, a Strategy Role Playing Game will still have the similar combat mechanics and possibly some small fare of role playing.
But make no mistake, a Strategy RPG is not a Wargame. Wargames are not designed with role playing in mind, they truly have nothing in common with an RPG other than their combat methods. Even then, Wargames started as military training methods for officers, and H.G. Wells simplified them to a diceless wargame for the common man, involving launched bits of wood, as I recall, to fire on troops.
Break rpg down. Role-playing game. Your always playing a role in every game.
Pokemon, you were playing Ash (but wth a name you wanted).
Marine Sharpshooter, your playing a sniper who has to move through areas and kill people to get to target location, different person each game.
A "true" RPG doesn't make sense, because the story will be the same, no matter what random character you make, the goals will still be achieved in the end,
or not achieved.
Thats my two cents. Any game can be classified as an RPG if you think about it, your always playing the role of some character.
You've touched on the Role part of RPG, but not the Game part.
The way I see it, and mind you, this is semantics here, Role Playing Game means three things:
Role- character or archetype that a player inserts himself into personality wise.
Playing- not real, for fun.
Game- an organized activity with a specific, organized, consistent set of rules.
Most games provide a role for you to play, it is the game part that is under debate. Does Super Mario Bros. have a role to play? yes. Does Super Mario Bros. involve systematic combat mechanics and character sheets with quantitative stats detailing abstract physical and mental traits? not unless we are playing one of those few mario titles that does. o.0'
It's this last part that defines the game part of what people understand to be an RPG, playing roles are important to most games, but the rules by which those games are played all differ, and only a certain set actually qualify for making a game anything resembling an RPG.
Sonic the Hedgehog- a game with a role
D&D Eye of the Beholder- a video RPG
Kirby Adventures in Dreamland- a game with a role
Palladium's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles supplement book- rules for an RPG
Legend of Zelda- a game designed to be played through a character, not a role
Dungeons & Dragons Online Eberron Unlimited- a MMORPG
The fact that these all include roles means nothing, it may be assumed that a role is a simple game mechanic common to most games, but that does not mean that most games are RPG's, since most games lack the appropriate set of rules and mechanics. These rules are what defines a PnP RPG, and what are programmed into a video RPG, in both cases, it is these rules that drive the game forward.